AI SEO & Business Automation Podcast

James Dooley: Listical link building for creating consensus to rank better in the LLMs and AI overviews.

Today I'm joined with Jabez Reuben, who is an absolute legend when it comes to building backlinks and link building strategies. It all seems to be focused now around these listicles, which are working very well.

Jabez, how well are listicles working for getting brands into the LLMs?

Jabez Reuben: As of right now, they are one of the best and fastest ways to rank across LLMs.

There are multiple variations and strategies, but to keep things simple, listicles are working really well to rank across all LLMs and even in AI overview results on Google.

James Dooley: Why do you think listicles seem to rank so well?

There are so many people now creating guest post content, press release content and other third-party content, and they always seem to be writing these listicles.

Why do you think they do so well?

Jabez Reuben: I think they are written with very laser-focused intent because you understand query fan-out across various LLMs.

If you search for a query, LLMs search multiple variations of it.

Let's say you search for “best window cleaner in New York City”. LLMs might search for best window cleaners for retail, best window cleaners for commercial, or best window cleaners for condos.

If you have articles written very specifically for best window cleaners for condos in a particular area, the more detailed you get, the faster LLMs pick those up.

If your articles are also well structured, with proper clear details, they get picked up even faster.

I think one of the reasons listicles get picked up is because of how laser-focused and well structured they are.

It is not difficult for LLMs to figure out where to pick the right answer from.

James Dooley: With regards to listicles, you have all the different entities being listed on the page and the comparison from one entity or company to the next.

You mentioned creating a well-structured listicle.

Why could someone not just go and get a guest post and have a listicle created?

Can you explain to listeners what a well-formatted listicle is?

Jabez Reuben: I will share how we format it. There can be many variations, strategies and SOPs, but this is what we follow.

First, you structure how many competitors you want to add. You have to add your competitors.

People are scared and say they do not want to add competitors to the article.

When you add competitors to your articles, LLMs start seeing you in the same category as well.

You have to place yourself alongside the right competitors in your article.

It can be a mix. Some articles list five competitors, some list 10, some list 20, and so on.

You first start by gathering your competitors for the article.

Then you start with a comparison table. I am just giving a rough overview of what should be there.

There should be a description for all competitors, and you should clearly state why your brand or your client's brand ranks well for that category.

Add as much media and structure as you can.

Use bullet points at the start where you summarise the article in the first five sentences.

The answer to the query should be given as soon as possible.

We actually give it in the very first heading because retrieval should be as fast as possible.

One of the main things to focus on is making sure answer retrieval is fast.

Then add structure, bullet points, key takeaways in the first sections and comparison tables.

Then you start talking about your brand, your client's brand and the rest of the brands, with structure, YouTube videos, media and contact details.

Justify why your client tops the list. If you have awards, mention them. If you can talk about special USPs or services that stand out, mention all of that.

Do not sleep on FAQs. Make sure you use unique FAQs in all your articles that make sense for the buyer when making a decision.

With all that structure, you position your article better.

Think of it as how you would write an article for your own website when you are putting in all the effort to make it rank.

James Dooley: I think what is incredible about what you have been doing, because I have seen a few of the different listicles you have done, is that you go above and beyond what a lot of others do.

I think information gain and going after those extra bits of information is key.

You mentioned adding media, images, videos, bullet points and numbered lists. Like you said, this is part of the structured data that should be used.

People probably do this on their own website, yet a lot of people creating third-party corroborative sources or guest post links are not doing that.

They are cutting corners and using one prompt with Claude or ChatGPT to create a listicle.

There is no supporting data. You mentioned awards and USPs. You are going above and beyond to compare one brand against another brand and one competitor against another competitor.

That is where you are going above and beyond with listicles.

I hear one or two people saying they are not sure whether listicles work anymore. Sometimes I look at them and think they are just creating a top 10 list with no data explaining why they are better.

You need to go above and beyond and show what makes you better than them.

What can you talk about? What awards have you won? You do not need to lie. You just need to package it up to show why you are the best and why your credentials make you the best.

For anyone watching who is uncertain about whether listicles help LLMs, what information would you give them?

Jabez Reuben: Listicles are not just helping LLMs. They are also helping us rank really well on page one of Google in the organic SERPs.

I was actually blown away by how easy it is getting to rank on page one right now with listicles.

In some cases, four out of the top five organic results are listicles we published.

To keep the answer simple and easy to understand, listicles are 100% influencing results.

The more you stack up, the more you build consensus for your brand with variation.

One mistake a lot of people make when complaining that listicles are not working is probably publishing the same content with no variation and creating AI spam.

The key is to stack up listicles with a lot of variation across every niche and sector.

For example, if you are a fintech firm or running accounting SaaS, you might create best accounting software articles for different niches and different areas.

You drill down into different niches and areas, then keep stacking up with lots of variation.

That is when you see listicles really influencing results across LLMs, AI overviews and organic SERPs as well.

James Dooley: One of the biggest words, and I think the biggest key takeaway from this podcast series, needs to be consensus.

We are going to be doing multiple videos, so make sure you check out the links in the description. There will be lots of different topics about how to seed LLMs and get your brand placed in them.

The word you mentioned there is consensus, and I think that is key.

I see so many people come along, buy one guest post and then say it does not work.

Or they buy one press release that syndicates out to 350 websites, which is good, but it is the same article, which is what you just said.

Stacking different variations of listicles on top of each other is absolutely key.

I also think another key point is what you mentioned about going after best software or best companies in an area.

When you change the area from Manchester to London, the list will be completely different because the competitors in London may be different from the competitors in Manchester.

You might work in both areas, but it allows you to connect your brand and your entity with other entities.

It shows why your USPs and awards make you better.

Can you explain a little more about why consensus is key?

Why should people watching or listening not just go out, get one listicle and expect it to work?

Jabez Reuben: You have to build that consensus.

Because this is a new thing, clients are getting into it and we have to explain it to them.

For example, when we tell clients to start from sub-regions and not target the nationwide area straight away, they sometimes worry that their local area where they have a Google Business Profile is very small and has no keyword volume.

Do not think about search volume straight away.

For building consensus, you have to understand that LLMs are moving towards AGI-level intelligence.

They understand how humans understand.

Think about how you and I perceive any brand.

If a brand is working well in a city, then working well statewide, then we might consider that it could become a nationwide hit.

We do not see any brand as a nationwide hit straight away if it is not doing well locally or regionally.

In the same way, you build consensus for LLMs from the ground up.

It is a bottom-up approach, not top-down.

You have to get your foundations right.

LLMs are smart. They are not basic algorithms where you can just put in a keyword and start ranking nationwide.

They will understand if a brand was not doing well locally or regionally, so how could they rank it nationwide?

We have especially seen that LLMs are getting stricter for health and fintech-related niches, so YMYL niches are even stricter.

Think about the way LLMs think in the same way you and I would perceive any brand.

You have to win in every region to win across the nation, and then worldwide.

James Dooley: What I love about that is you are merging this approach for LLMs and AI overviews with how a lot of people talk about semantic SEO.

There was a term from around 10 years ago, I think from Chris Carter, called SEO Avalanche.

The idea was that you start off and work through your traffic tiers. You start with easy-to-rank terms and work your way up.

You are saying something similar. Start with small, easy-to-rank suburbs and bit by bit keep moving up.

I have another question for you.

When you are creating these different listicles to build consensus and feed AI overviews and large language models, do you daisy-chain links?

Do you link one listicle to another listicle and use it as a reference?

Jabez Reuben: Absolutely.

We have two products right now.

One is regular listicles, where we target mid to top-tier sites that allow listicles, because listicles are not easy to publish with links on every site. Sites are getting stricter.

Those are what we call regular listicles.

Then we have a different product called brand coverage, where we do not add direct links to the client's main sites.

Instead, we add links to other listicles, review articles or comparison articles that we have published for the client.

We then add those links into new publications wherever it makes sense and where it is relevant.

James Dooley: For sure.

Another key takeaway for me with regards to building consensus through listicles is that people do not realise every article and every guest post you publish on a third-party source, where you talk about reviews, awards or USPs, is defining your entity.

It is strengthening the confidence and clarity of who you are, what you do and why you are brilliant.

Even if it did not rank in the LLMs, it is helping define who you are and what you do to ChatGPT, Claude, Perplexity, Google and Bing.

To wrap it up, Jabez, what key takeaways would you give, and how can someone reach out to you about building listicles to improve online consensus?

Jabez Reuben: First, understand how search across LLMs is working.

Do not chase high-volume keywords.

Start small. Right now, we do keyword research, but we do not go crazy about only targeting high-volume terms.

Understand that it is a long game, especially in tougher niches.

Based on your budget, start as soon as possible and start stacking up one niche.

Capture that niche before you move on to another category.

Then just keep stacking up.

You have to keep stacking up more data and more consensus for your brand to see long-term results across LLMs.

It is a long-term game.

You are not going to publish one or two articles and expect results.

James Dooley: Anyone listening or watching this, we hope you liked our podcast on link building and how it builds consensus for large language models and ranking in Google search.